Update: The story below has now been corroborated by multiple witnesses.
Originally posted 8/15.
I just spoke with Nigel M, who preferred that his full name not be published. He is the man accused by Israeli Channel 13 journalist Neria Kraus of discrimination in a series of tweets seen by millions on X (formerly known as Twitter) and on sites across the web:
חרדים בטיסה עכשיו מנסים להזיז אותי ממושב למושב. כי אני אישה. יונייטד אירליינס אגב לא מטפלים בזה. אומרים לי שבגללי הטיסה לא תצא. בושה. pic.twitter.com/e6BsnMxOuU
— נריה קראוס Neria Kraus (@NeriaKraus) August 15, 2023
She claimed that “Haredim” tried to make her move seats because she is a woman.
Neria then posted a picture of the “offenders” that are clearly not your typical haredim. But why let that detail get in the way of a sensationalist anti-Haredi story that the Israeli media is so fond of?
She then railed against an Israeli United flight attendant who supposedly shouted at her and threatened to divert the plane:
איזו תחושת השפלה שהדיילת האחראית של יונייטד, ישראלית מדברת עברית, ניגשת וצועקת עליי שבגללי הטיסה לא תצא. ושאם כן יטוסו, הטיסה תצטרך בגללי לעצור במצרים. תודה לשני גברים ואישה ישראלית מהממים לידי שתמכו בי. https://t.co/460Ac4ef9f
— נריה קראוס Neria Kraus (@NeriaKraus) August 15, 2023
The blogosphere went off to the races without hearing the full story, though DDF was on the case. These were obviously not “haredim” that would cause a scene, so the story didn’t add up.
DDF user Yehuda57’s intuition is often on point, and he guessed the following,
“The guy politely asked her to switch seats (and probably not even for religious reasons). Instead of refusing and him accepting her answer, she blew a fit and started cursing out The Hareidim™️. Flight attendant came over and told her to calm down. She continues ranting. At this stage they’ve already taken off. FA warns her that is she doesn’t calm down they’ll have to divert to deplane her.”
And sure enough, Daniel Amram found the “haredi” in question and asked him what happened:
טוב גבירותיי ורבותיי כתבת חדשות 13 נריה קראוס סיפרה אתמול ש״חרדים רצו שהיא תעבור מקום בטיסה בגלל שהיא אישה״, היא צילמה את האדם הזה שהוא בעל משפחה ואדם מאד מוכר בברוקלין, הציוץ שלה הגיע למעל מליון צפיות וגם להחברים שלו שנדהמו ופנו אליי במשך כל היום, ״אין סיכוי, הבן אדם הזה מארח… pic.twitter.com/KkC4M1aYKP
— daniel amram – דניאל עמרם (@danielamram3) August 16, 2023
It’s pretty much exactly what Yehuda57 guessed.
Wow! It's not often that I actually know the ppl who are being accused. I know the guy in the picture (and his sons) , he's no extremist, works hard for a living and is well traveled. That plus the fact that she's upset at the flight crew there's likely a lot more to this story.
— Chaim Fried (@ChaiFried) August 15, 2023
I just spoke to my friend.Turns out when he initially asked her to move so his son could sit in the same row as he & sons friend she was obliging and only changed her attitude when he took off his baseball cap to reveal a yarmulke.
She was looking for an oppty to bash 'hareidim'— Chaim Fried (@ChaiFried) August 15, 2023
I hate writing about stories without first-hand knowledge, so via X, I was able to connect and have a phone call with Nigel to discuss the nitty-gritty of what happened.
Nigel is originally from London and is a businessman now living in Flatbush, Brooklyn. He was flying home from Israel with his son on United flight 85 from Tel Aviv to Newark today, but they weren’t able to get seats together. His son was in seat 47C and he was in 48D, both aisles on the United 787-10 Dreamliner:
A non-religious family wanted 48D so they could sit together, so he happily traded them for 47D, another aisle.
Sitting next to him in 47E, a middle seat, was a friend of his son.
Neria Kraus, the Israeli journalist was in 47F, an aisle seat.
Nigel politely asked Neria if she would trade 47F for 47C, an aisle for an aisle, so his son could sit next to his friend in 47E.
Initially she said no problem, she would happy to do so once boarding concluded.
But then Nigel removed his baseball cap, revealing his yarmulka underneath, and Neria started shouting about discrimination upon the realization that he was religious. She screamed at him asking why she had to trade just because she’s a woman and acted completely out of control, despite the request having nothing to do with her being a woman.
He responded calmly that all he asked was if she was willing to trade and that she obviously didn’t have to move if she didn’t want to.
However, other people around heard her shouting about discrimination and made the scene ever bigger.
The flight attendant heard Neria making a scene and came and told her that if you’re going to cause problems, fighting and shouting about discrimination, we’ll cancel the flight.
Nigel told the flight attendant there is no fight as far as he’s concerned.
However, there was still a scene around them and Neria continued shouting.
The Tel Aviv ground staff then came onto the plane and asked if she would be able to continue to Newark without causing a scene. They told her that even if plane takes off, if you continue to cause a commotion, we’ll stop in Egypt to deboard you.
Neria was livid. She started taking pictures of Nigel and Tweeting angrily about United not siding with her and threatening her with removal.
She stopped making a commotion at that point and Nigel asked her why you don’t like hardeim, which made her quite defensive. But that was the end of the drama for the rest of the flight.
- Nigel notes that a young religious woman was sitting in 47B and was uncomfortable there between his son and another man, and she wound up trading with his son’s friend in 47E, so she sat in between Nigel and Neria while Nigel’s son and friend sat next to each other in the end. This happened without fuss or drama, just a normal seat trade.
Nigel stressed that this was never about women and that he’s obviously not a typical Haredi that she jumped to assume he was because of his yarmulka. He has no beard, no long payos (sidelocks), and his blue shirt was certainly not part of the typical Haredi uniform. That doesn’t mean that Haredim will necessarily cause a scene on planes, we know that anyone these days is liable to cause a scene on an airplane! However, in this case, the story obviously made no sense in the first place as he isn’t Haredi.
So there you have it.
Sadly, this isn’t the first time that Israeli media has created a false narrative about Haredim on flights.
A 2018 El Al flight was reported to have been delayed over an hour by Haredim, when in fact it was just a few minutes.
Hardeim were blamed for violently causing a flight to divert to Athens, which was proven to be a complete lie after DansDeals researched the story.
Lufthansa used collective punishment against all Jews on a plane who appeared to be Haredim, which excluded some Jews wearing baseball caps, to ban them from flying to their destination. The airline paid millions of dollars to innocent passengers after a DansDeals special investigation.
I have sometimes politely asked others on planes if they might be willing to trade for an equal or better seat for my family to sit together, but the person can always refuse and that’s just fine.
Luckily for us, we have never asked an Israeli journalist looking to create a scene if they might be willing to change seats!
DansDeals has reached out to United and Neria Kraus for comment on this story and this post will be updated if they respond.
Were you on this flight and saw what happened? Please email dan@dansdeals.com to share what you witnessed.
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136 Comments On "DansDeals Interview With The “Haredi” Accused Of Discrimination On United; Israeli Journalist Invented A False Narrative"
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Thank you Dan
+100
Bravo
Hopefully he sues her big time
Take screenshots of her tweet before she deletes it now that the facts are out there.
Also, the intonation seems to be that “the regular chareidi” would do this, which doesn’t have to be assumed either.
Gr8 reporting.
Hopefully for @newsisrael13 will fire her for being a racist (anti-haredi) pathological liar – but that’s too much to hope for!
She just might get a promotion
Unfortunately this is the standard operating procedure for channel 13 here in Israel.
Sadly, they report daily fake news against Torah observing Jews.
Great job looking into this. I hope the truth will be revealed and if she was in the wrong, karma will take care of it.
At the same time, this touches a sentiment and an issue that has happened too many times in flights to/from Israel and recently, in public transportation, events and other gatherings for the general population. She may have jumped on the opportunity to get her 15 minutes of fane, but the real issue of women being told by men, often with some kind of religious background (not necessarily Hasidim) where to stand/sit/sing in Israel IS the real problem.
?
What do you by ” real issue of women being told by men, often with some kind of religious background (not necessarily Hasidim) where to stand/sit/sing in Israel IS the real problem”?
Women being expected to sit in the back of busses in many areas is asking for trouble.
It seems the women who live in those areas are okay with it, but no surprise that this is a touchy topic for secular women
Well most of the world think that women being told to stand in the back of the shul behind curtains is a big problem too. Seems like the Halacha has become a problem nowadays……..
That is if you chose to be touchy.
If they want it can be switched, men can sit in the back & woman in front.
The only question is your perspective if you believe they are asked to sit in the back because they are inferior thats a problem, but if you understand that the chareidim respect woman very much, just they want to guard their eyes & actually respect woman very much, then there is really no issue.
The truth is that no chareidy woman feels discriminated against because they know that they are respected.
In this instance no one was asked to sit in the back of anywhere and the reason for the request was explained. It’s obvious that the reason for the disturbance was manufactured.
I was did several synagogues tour in eastern Europe and it was very interesting to overhear all the non Jewish tour guides, respectfully and while being politically correct, explain why there is separate seating in synagogues.
Fantastic job as usual
Unfortunately although you researched what really happened, the damage has already been done.
Journalism isn’t dead after all.
Great article as usual but this sentence threw me for a loop.
“These were obviously not “haredim” that would cause a scene, so the story didn’t add up”
So there are haredim who would cause a scene??
Anyone in any group can cause a scene on a flight!
However blaming a non-Haredi for this particular scene didn’t pass the smell test.
What’s your definition of Haredi vs non- Haredi? To me Haredi is a frum kippah wearing Jew which this guy seems to be, but maybe I have the wrong definition?
The vast majority of Haredim don’t cause any scenes.
But among the cases where something actually happened, it’s Haredim in the full getup. Beard with long peyos, fur hat, and frock.
The point is that kippah wearing Jews in baseball caps aren’t the ones making a scene to get people reseated…which made this story highly suspect from the beginning.
Why ruin a good piece of journalism with this piece of racial profiling. Just because the gentleman in question was clean shaven and dressed in an up to date suit the story becomes suspect? As if only those who choose to maintain the appearance and dress code of their forebears are ill mannered? Perhaps you should step out of your comfort zone and actually get to know people who do not dress/talk/act like you. it might be enlightening
First – They are not maintaining the dress of their forebears, or else they would probably dress like Arabs. They are not even correctly maintaining the dress of 18th-century Eastern European nobility, which is what it is based on. They are maintaining a highly changed (and changing) version of the dress of 18th-century Eastern European nobility.
Second – I think you will find the majority of cases of frum people causing problems on planes due to seat switching is from Chassidim, not Litvish/Modern/other. Personally, the last time I flew to Israel I had Chassidim playing musical chairs on the planes both ways. I have never seen anyone else do so. (Although, I can’t really complain – my wife and I ended up with the only empty seat on a jam-packed plane because of the games.)
Which is why Dan is right in saying that seeing a clearly more Modern individual in the pictures immediately raises alarm bells that something sounds off. It’s like reading a story in the news about a family with KH 15 kids and seeing that guy’s picture – yeah, it’s possible, but more likely it’s a Chassidish family and they are using a stock photo.
Dan, to the best of my understanding, he’d definitely be considered Charedi by accepted definition.
I think here they are using Charedi and Chassidish interchangeably, even though Chassidim would be a distinct subset of Charedim (which are far easier to pick out of a crowd).
AMEN!
Looks like someone else attempting to initiate a controversy about yet another but similar issue.
Wow, look, here’s my “shocked and surprised” face at this turn of events:
Sadly, these anti-frum lunatics won’t ever change their hateful ways, except for one possibility… if you make it cost them money. Lots of it.
In Israel, there is something called “Chok Lashon Hara” – basically, a law against slander/defamation that is extremely draconian by American standards. You can very easily sue someone for “defaming” you if they post something negative about you online, and you can even be awarded a minimum judgement of 50,000 shekels (IINM) right off the bat, WITHOUT EVEN NEEDING TO PROVE THAT THE “DEFAMATION” CAUSED YOU ANY FINANCIAL HARM! (This is why it’s so hard to find reliable reviews of products/services/restaurants/etc. on Israeli websites – Israelis are terrified of leaving an honest negative review, for fear of being sued under Chok Lashon Hara.)
Please inform Nigel of this, and ask him to pursue such legal action against this “journalist” piece of garbage. I’m sure he’ll say he “doesn’t want to pick a fight” and “doesn’t want to make a chilul Hashem” and “doesn’t even need the money anyway”… but let’s be honest: it’s not about him getting the money – he can donate it straight to tzedaka if he wants. Rather, it’s about putting a stop to this hatred once and for all. People like this journalist will keep publicly slandering religious people simply because they feel there is no repercussion or blowback for their actions, since frum people never stand up to them and fight back (legally). Hit them in the pocketbook – hard! – simply AS A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE, and I guarantee you that next time, they’ll think twice before making up hateful stories about religious people. Don’t do it for the money – do it for the Klal, Nigel!
(You can put Nigel directly in touch with me if you/he wants to discuss this matter further.)
+10000
There have been a few gender related provocations this week on Israeli public transportation so her story really feeds well, on top of all the other hate that we’re recently experiencing.
I just hope United doesn’t give in and offer her some sort of apology.
Israeli SM readers are urging her to sue United for discrimination…
Sounds like a law that would effectively reduce rabble rousing and give people whose goal is to cause dissent pause.
Reading comments on Israeli media about this incident is just sickening. Unfortunately, if someone decides to bully chareidim, anything goes.
Is this the Jewish state people dreamed of???
All people that dreamed of the “Jewish State” are still dreaming……
Do you really think this “dream” country with haredim financially living off the non-religious’ backs while not working nor doing military service is going to work?
Do you really think that a secular population committing the most abhorrent acts is a way for the Jews to keep the land?
Read the Bible.
So are you saying there are no wars mentioned in the bible or did they send the secular population of the time to the front line?
Whataboutism. That has nothing do do with the incontrovertibly that Jews committing travesties will be expelled from the land. You ought to be very concerned about this. You believe in the Bible, right?
The wars in the Bible were fought by an extremist religious group, let us know when the army is religious so we can talk.
+1
For example the Maccabi’s who fought against the misyavnim.
Thank you Dan for doing REAL journalism!!
I hope Nigel sues her skirt, er I mean pants off for defamation
Great idea!
G-d bless you, Dan!
Tzedek tzedek tirdof! (This week’s parsha!)
Her side of the story is still the only side beibg reported both in Israeli and international media. So, great investigation but it needs to be shared with news outlets.
By all means, share this widely.
This is horrific. Thanks for clarifying
It is horrific how the secular media is allways portraying “them hareidim” as stoneaged parasites who are after yer money (alla der sturmer) while in actuallity its the religious who are holding up the country and the only ones who are shouldering the burden of raising the next generation…
How about a different perspective.
Aren’t you just trading one persons version of the story for another person’s and then for some reason calling that person’s version the more accurate one?
It could be said this is basically trading blame for who the biased person is in the story without an independent third-party witness. Which would appear to cause the same bias prejudice but in reverse.
The tragedy of the story is how easy people are to hate one others and choose to believe stereotypes without showing empathy.
United is already apologizing to her https://twitter.com/united/status/1691488252551933952
Neria Krauss is the America based reporter for an Israeli TV channel, she is new at this part of the job,before that she worked for the TV station in Israel. She recently had a positive report on the business people amongst the Ultra Orthodox in New York.Amongst the people she interviewed were the well known Lubavitcher ,Duddi Farkash, and she actually ate with him in Spring, a cafe in Boro Park and remarked on how delicious it was.Additionally she interviewed the Satmar chossid Joseph Itzkowitz from Toys for U .
The video was widely seen on watsapp and online
I dont know what made her lose it.Like Dan pointed out, I also suspected based on the picture that the fellow there was not the type to make a fuss.
Everyone loves Lubavitch. Duddi is not a proof she likes Chareidim…
I don’t know what happened, I wasn’t there. But this claim that he is not chareidi is a bit silly. He may not be chareidi, but the two young men in the picture look pretty chareidi. They actually look pretty yeshivish.
He should sue the hell out of her, @dan thanks for your honest reporting and getting the truth out, also the hate these ppl have for religious Jews is mind boggling
I know Nigel personally and he is a very polite English gentleman and the last thing he would do is to cause a scene. I spoke to him after he landed it was a simple seat swap that we have all been asked to do at some point. I hope that he sues her for tweating a pucture of him and for slander of his good name.
Great job!
Reach out to Channel 13 and hold them to account.
She should lose her job as a journalist for lying like that.
How shocking that a group of religious men immediately believe their fellow man’s story and not a woman. THERE IS VIDEO EVIDENCE FROM THE UNITED FLIGHT ATTENDENT WHERE HE ADMITS THAT THE MAN REFUSED TO SIT NEXT TO HER BECAUSE SHE’S A WOMAN. And to be honest, even before learning all the facts, I always believed her. We all were on flights to Israel, there are definitely higher odds of a haredi man shaming a woman and refusing to sit next to her than the woman making it up. The responses here is how and why it’s still happening. Take a big look in the mirror, people, maybe it’s you.
The video is an edited snippet and proves nothing other than Neria spoke to that flight attendant with her narrative and heard from others about what was happening.
“Higher odds”
Are you racial profiling???
You said “ even before learning all the facts, I always believed her”. My hope for you is that you never have a woman falsely claim you raped or sexually harassed her. There’s no joke in the matter.
Wow Lefty Power! We can use someone like you ; there is a short porch in right field
Well, now there is a woman saying the opposite of what Ms. Kraus said, so you are in a real pickle. There are 2 women who disagree, and you always believe the woman, so which one do you believe? First-past-the-gate?
Haters gonna hate
POPPYCOCK, this type of comment is propagating more angst and ruling the fires to continue.
Been today flights to Israel where a Haredi man refused to sit next to a woman than when a woman (let alone a reporter) made a story up, which never happened to me or I’ve never heard happened before. Sorry everyone’s little haredi fragile ego was hurt by this. I STAND WITH NERIA.
Consider editing this so that it’s comprehensible.
+100
This comment was posted by a bot
It’s all about your atitude.
I was once on a flight when an iriligious woman asked me if she should swap places with someone, so I shouldn’t have to sit next to a woman.
What I’m trying to say is that even if her version is true(and it probably isn’t) she is just an attantion seeker. She tries to make a fuss out of every little thing.
The story doesn’t add up. If Nigel was sitting in 47D, his son in 47C and his son’s friend was in 47E then all they would have to do is Nigel, trading places with his son. The he would be sitting in 47C while his son with his friend would be together in 47D and 47E. And no one would need to move Neria.
Why was this obvious solution not used unless the son and his friend were unwilling to sit next to a woman?
You really don’t understand why the 3 of them would want to sit together?
They are just across the aisle. Not on the other side of the plane. So no, I don’t understand why they would involve a third person, a stranger, asking her to move around to a different aisle when they can just rearrange themselves in a way that suits them.
People request to have a row of their friends and family on thousands of flights every day.
I know I’ve been asked and have asked that many times. Not a big deal at all if it’s for a similar seat.
People switching seats like this happens on virtually every commercial flight (besides Southwest, maybe)
Maybe Southwest should be the example for others to follow.
If so, I don’t understand why he didn’t just swap with his father. 47C to 47D is a much easier move, rather than involving a stranger, moving overhead bags to the other aisle, etc.
Something in this story doesn’t quite add up either.
You really don’t understand why the 3 of them would want to sit together?
I think you’re agreeing it’s a religious move even if not charedi. The yeshiva boys would rather not sit next to a woman if they didn’t have to.
Easiest thing would have been to have father and son swap and not bother anyone.
Does not excuse what happened but it seems the seeds of this is religious reasons
No, I’m not agreeing with that at all.
People request to have a row of their friends and family on thousands of flights every day.
I know I’ve been asked and have asked that many times. Not a big deal at all if it’s for a similar seat.
Except, if you continued to read, the woman in 47B switched with the friend in 47E, so he was sitting next to 2 women the entire flight. (And the friend didn’t even cry sexism over HER asking to switch!) It went from MFM_MMF to MMM_MFF. He asked for MFF_MMM. Not sure how it would have caused her problems.
what’s wrong in requesting it for religious reason? It has nothing to do with discrimination.
That’s unfortunate. It’s a shame that a lot of the news nowadays is not true. It’s more like they want to make a point and a false narrative is created. Unfortunately there are some haredim that do cause problems on flight like I had on my United flight to israel. The person I think was mentally ill. He insisted on smoking on the plane. They flight attendants told him that he could not. He threw a fit and insisted that they had to stop the plane to let him off because he had to smoke. I tried to calm him down but he only spoke Hebrew. They assigned a flight attendant just to take care of him. He requested to be handcuffed which was also strange and they did. It seemed liked the situation was under control but we ended up diverting to Spain where authorities took him off the plane. It was a three hour delay. Luckily we had no reporter like this lady on the plane who was out to badmouth haredim.
Mental illness affects every group out there.
Are you reffering to sfo-tlv
bec then you’re reffering to me
Wow, I knew Channel 13 was in trouble , I didn’t realize how close they are to bankruptcy
@Dan do you have any update about the story from Zurich with United?
Wanna what was the story
https://www.kikar.co.il/israel-news/rzh8n2
These provocations are organized to bash charaidim. Article also mentions the United story.
Funny how life works. I believe a woman based on the story she told, which happens to women all over Israel (especially nowadays) but everyone here, who happens to be on the side of the side that’s accused, solely believe that man and his “friends.” I feel like I’ve seen this before.
She posted this video – seems like this narrative has many layers…
https://twitter.com/NeriaKraus/status/1691740434635297137?s=20
Sorry, but that video is an edited snippet and proves nothing other than Neria spoke to that flight attendant with her narrative and he heard from others around her who made a commotion about what was happening.
I have Delta Diamond and fly TLV -JFK, JFK TLV all the time. I am a visibly Haredi Orthodox Jewish man and I always get treated very nicely by the non-Jewish staff and passengers. I often and always get antisemitic abuse from antisemitic secular Jewish Israelis; passengers and even flight attendants. I have never asked a woman to move and I don’t participate in minyans on a plane. However I have sat next to multiple secular Israelis recently who spontaneously turned to me and said “I HATE Haredim, let me tell you why.” Numerous secular Israeli flight attendants have been abusive of Haredim including me, even when I flew in Delta One, when a non-religious Jewish passenger asked me to give him a “dvar Torah” and the Israeli flight attendant told me “sit down and eat your food.” No “please” or “sir” —and the seat belt sign was NOT on. She just didn’t want the innocent non-religious Jew to be “corrupted” by a dirty (first-class) Haredi so she aggressively told me 5 times to sit down in my seat and let the other passenger eat, even after the passenger said he invited me to speak to him. We were both in Delta One and he sat behind me. Lots of similar experiences. I can’t say that I am particularly impressed with secular Israelis as a whole despite a few positive encounters here and there.
Why should we believe this is the true story?
Which story?
“Wow! It’s not often that I actually know the ppl who are being accused. I know the guy in the picture (and his sons) , he’s no extremist, works hard for a living…. ”
I don’t know.. this statement in itself seems to fit in with anti-charedi propaganda. Vast majority of charedim work hard for a living
Not the ones in Israel, that’s the problem
Wait, this might have to do with the fact that they don’t allow them to work without serving in the thoroughly secular promiscuous army, right?
I’ve read all your posts above & it seems to me that you have a real problem with Charedim, maybe it would be advisable to get to know them personally instead of through the media.
Business insider picked up the false story. Can you reach out to correct it, Dan?
https://www.insider.com/israeli-journalist-yelled-united-flight-orthodox-jewish-men-2023-8
You can email or tweet the author https://www.insider.com/author/hannah-getahun
Done.
Hi Hannah,
I appreciate your coverage at Insider and very much enjoy your writing.
I wanted to bring your attention to an alternative viewpoint on a story you recently covered. Please see the following link
https://www.dansdeals.com/points-travel/airlines/united/dansdeals-interview-haredi-accused-discrimination-united-israeli-journalist-invented-false-narrative
where the journalist is alleged to have fabricated the story as yet another in a recent series of anti-Hareidi provocations currently underway in Israel. I am sure you are aware of the ongoing political turmoil between the Hareidim and many members of the secular public, including the very station at which Neria is employed, relating to the proposed Supreme Court reforms.
Due to the prestige Insider is accorded, it would be a vital disservice to the public if they were left with only one side of an apparently disputed story which can do real damage to an already often targeted minority in Israel, the US, and across the world. I am certain you did not intend to foment hatred and were merely reporting what you believed to be accurate at the time. A correction to the record would be most welcome.
Thank you for your time, and I look forward to reading more of your excellent journalism.
Thanks for posting this Dan, I’m glad both individuals involved in this have been able to share their side of the story. Given how different the two version of events are, I would imagine the truth lies somewhere in the middle here. Unfortunately, unless someone caught the incident on camera, there’s not really anyway to know for sure.
The same way that most folks in the mainstream are almost predisposed to take the side of the journalist, it seems like most Dan’s Deals readers are more likely to take the side of the man here.
I will say though, claiming that the flight attendant threatened to divert to Egypt makes no sense. Egypt is the complete opposite direction of the flight path UA85 takes and also, the plane was still sitting on the ground in TLV. So according, to the journalist, the FA was apparently threatening to have the plane take off, go the exact opposite direction of it’s normal flight path and divert to Egypt.
I think your comment may be true if it was two regular passengers who had a disagreement. Being that the female is involved is a journalist who works for a channel has a agenda to regularly bashes orthodox Jews, it makes for a very compelling argument that she is simply creating a story for clicks.
I guess that’s fair but everyone has an agenda of some sort. I mean, at the end of this article Dan seems to exonerate Nigel declaring, without any definitive proof to back it up, “So there you have it. Sadly, this isn’t the first time that Israeli media has created a false narrative about Haredim on flights.”
I still think the truth is somewhere in the middle here. I certainly have a hard time believing Nigel was acting as poorly as was claimed by the journalist.
Hi Dan, it would be great if you could get an interview with the woman who swapped seats with the boys so that she corronorate corroborate what Nigel said. I saw on Maariv online that Kraus is already changing her tune and saying that it was the boys who refused to sit next to her and Nigel was playing the part of the adult. Interesting how she had to chnage her side becuase she realises that everyone knows that he is a normal guy.
While siding with the normie over the activist makes more sense, I have a few issues with his side of the story:
(1) While he doesn’t look like the kind of person to avoid sitting next to a woman, his bachur definitely does.
(2) His story about removing his cap makes absolutely no sense as his bachur — who he was trying to help — was visibly chareidi.
(3) Like others pointed out, the father could have swapped with the son places which would have resolved the issue. I don’t know of any teenager who needs to sit right next to his father vs across the aisle from each other…
Honestly, my theory is that they were trying to resolve the other situation where a frum girl was sitting between two bachurim, what a super awkward situation…
Playing devil’s advocate, let say a male actually wants to sit next to an attractive woman for inappropriate reasons. Would that woman actually be delighted by his reasoning for sitting against her for 12 hours?
Whilst I’m Chabad I do have a issue with people using frumkeit to exploit. Recently my shy daughter who landed with 3 seats to herself was asked to change seats right before take off by a yungerman for religious reasons and felt compelled to oblige. She ended being squashed up for 10 hours whilst he spread out with 3 seats. It’s not right and very off putting.
Everyone has the right to say no.
There is nothing wrong with asking.
If she was super nice, she could’ve offered him 1 seat on her row so they each get 1.5 seats. If he’s not happy with that, too bad.
+1 and this point makes me doubt the story
that has nothing with the actual request, and everything to do with the side factors, so basically you should make sure not to sit next to a woman, but make sure to do it in a normal way that doesn’t hurt other peoples feelings etc, like me and and my friends do btw.
Not okay, but what this really highlights the harm the “I demand to have seats changed” actually causes – both when mayhem ensues and in the broader mindset of people.
Folks need to take a step back and come to the realization that you are flying a commercial airline and you may have to sit next to a woman/man. This is the reality of living in the 21st century.
AYLOR
If someone demands to change seats without a willing exchange party then that individual should be removed from the plane. I don’t think anyone here disagrees with that. The story at hand is uniquely different.
OK, but there is nothing wrong with asking politely.
Let’s see of Community Notes will be added to her original tweet.
I don’t get the controversy. If someone from a diff religion had a reasonable request based on something you don’t believe in, would you say no or would you comply because that’s what decent people do? Obviously you can say no but even if the reason was because he didn’t want to sit next to her, what’s the big deal?
Just watched Channel 13 Israeli TV where Neria Krauss, now in the United States was interviewed live.She is their American correspondent. She stands by her story firmly and it sounded credible.The television station also brought Daniel Amrams interview with Nigel .
To me it sounds like a huge deal over nothing.Even if the young men preferred not to sit next to a woman ,why not work with it if its an easy fix?
Israel has so much on its hands today, including a very serious border situation with Hezbollah and by proxy with Iran amongst so many other issues and a easily dealt with issue like this is a headline??
C’mon
What made her sound credible?
Thank you Dan, but can this information be publicized to other media sites, especially the mainstream media, for broader distribution. The original, false article was published in Haaretz and picked up and republished by the Forward and some English language news sources.
An Eishes Potifar story.
To all progressive, inclusive, tolerant Haredi-loving secular women, especially journalists:
1. Do your best to manifest your tolerance and indiscriminate love to Haredi men by demanding them sitting next to you at all costs, if not by will, then by coercion, resisting any attempts to the contrary.
2. Then create a scene by accusing them of not observing proper boundaries.
3. If attempts have been unsuccessful, turn a problem into opportunity. At least accuse them of discrimination.
LOL
Any chance you can reach out to the journalist and get her side of the story?
I emailed her. No response.
“DansDeals has reached out to United and Neria Kraus for comment on this story and this post will be updated if they respond.”
He must sue her for the sake of all frum Yidden. Those chilonim who hate their own brothers and sisters must learn a lesson!
I think there is a general culture difference that contributes to this issue. As frum Jews that try to work on our midos we are more eager to help another and go out of our comfort zone if it makes a difference to someone else regardless of race or color. It works both ways sometimes giving or receiving. But a society that revolves around the I automatically sets one up to feel this is my seat my property my boundary my right etc. and when someone else infringes on that it goes haywire.
That’s why also, certain sects that are lfnim mshuras hadin and would have no problem with borrow my tallis or come into my car sopping wet will naturally sometimes expect the same from others. We difinetly need to work understanding other norms but nothing of this stuff is from a bad place or degrading any other human being.
This story may or may not be true, but sadly the reality in israel is that there is discrimination against women in all aspects of life.
This is absurd in the times we live in.
I live in Israel & I have no idea what your talking about(neither does my wife).
I assume that you live outside of Israel & your taking your ‘facts’ from the media.
You can ignore the problem but that doesn’t mean it’s not happening. When you cancel a national ceremony just because there’s a woman singer – that’s discrimination.
When you vandalize/hide billboards or products in a pharmacy that have faces of women on them – that’s discrimination.
When you block access to public pools or natural parks based on gender?
When a bus driver won’t talk to an old lady or won’t allow women on the bus, that’s a problem.
When a university is hiring more male professors because certain groups of society would not be able to attend classes taught by women, you’re discriminating.
This affects people from all groups of israeli society and simply can’t be ignored.
And no, this isn’t just fed by the media – it’s happening every day. I’m not aware of the details in this particular story, not familiar with the people mentioned, but I took my fair share of flights to know that this can be a problem. If you can’t sit next to a person based on their gender, religion or race – well, we have a big problem
You seriously believe that women aren’t allowed in pools, parks, or on busses in Israel?
No, but things that happen recently are leading to situations like that
When you can’t accommodate religious soldiers beliefs – that’s discrimination.
When you paint the entirety of a segment of the population based on a few nutcases vandalizing – that’s discrimination.
If a university is hiring certain professors to attract a certain population to attend – that’s not discrimination.
If you can’t tolerate people who avoid close contact with the opposite gender as a safeguard against promiscuity, we have a big problem.
I personally don’t have an issue with that population but when these things are starting to affect non religious population it is not good.
One can avoid any contact with human beings for all I care, but that’s their problem, you can expect all humans in their way to move aside. And I’m not only meaning this on the literal physical level, this can be applied to all arguments you’ve mentioned
Your religion dictates YOUR actions, it does not dictate the actions of everyone around you.
This IS fed by your media.
I’m sorry, but this is non-sense. Do you have any evidence backing up these stories?
If you are like most people then you are fed by the media, both knowingly & unknowingly.
Additionally, I don’t see any problem in asking someone politely & respectfully if they are wiling to switch places with you (for any reason) if people are disrespectful, that’s a problem
Sorry to break it to you sir, but there are also many female students in Israel who prefer female professors. Those of us who live in Israel and are actually familiar with college classes for the chareidi/dati public know that there is actually a bigger demand for female teachers!
I never heard of as bus driver refusing to speak to an old lady! Please tell me we are all these Yerushalmi bus drivers!
They should ban her for causing such a disruption.
Sounds like the journalist wanted to be the headline instead of the author this time. Shameful.